Pastor Gives Up Screaming for His Church

This transcript is from approved final-cut captions. Paragraph breaks follow the captions and do not indicate speaker turns; speaker names are intentionally omitted. The closing prayer is not included.

1. 0:00

   for anybody that doesn't know, I am on staff full time at a church, I am a pastor. and so I I got a call from one of my heads Some people in the congregation who had felt a certain way about a certain aspect of my music in which I made and it had to do with the screaming. I didn't want to know who said it. I don't need to know that. And I don't necessarily need to know what they said. all I needed to know is that they were uncomfortable with the fact that I would be in the pulpit.

2. 0:43

   in in their pulpit and and I call it theirs because this this congregation, this is the Lord's house, but it's theirs. And knowing the ways that they feel about those aspects of screaming, how that could hinder their ability to receive what I'm saying, the ability to have a pastoral a pastoral voice in their life in the future as well as now which those things were concerns raised by my heads and even myself, and they are true. that was the biggest thing that I thought about during this whole process is that when it came down to that one person, I would much rather give up a certain aspect of what I do just to know that I would have their pastoral ear, as I do see more of an importance in this local congregation than what I do online.

3. 1:33

   you have an example of a pastor who has been able to be on a scream song or still scream in a song and pastor, and it's Maddie Montgomery. And the difference could be one major thing: the congregation. If you have a younger congregation. Those people may not have a conviction against that because it's the type of music they grew up around, it's the type of music they may enjoy. My congregation is a mixed batch, and I've got a lot of old folk that lived through everything that happened with how metal was now viewed as demonic, as the the culture was seen as a offering to satanic things or a way to express satanic things, all of that. So we have to take that in consideration.

4. 2:19

   Okay, let me just summarize. your church leadership came to you and said someone, maybe some people are uncomfortable with your screaming and the fact that you are a pastor and you preach and you might one day become the lead pastor of this church, it's gonna make it really hard for those people To follow you, respect you, listen to you, because they're holding this against you. And so you took that and you remembered what Paul taught about respecting the weaker brother.

5. 2:55

   It's not about Yes. is the screaming a sin or not. It's the fact that somebody felt like screaming is a sin and you had a choice to make, which is to say. Well, shouldn't have to give up screaming, so I'm not going to because it's not a sin, but you made a different choice. So walk Right. me through what were you thinking when you made that choice to give up screaming? Well, the call is given to the stronger conscience. The responsibility is given to the person that doesn't see that as something that is disobedient to God or doesn't have a problem.

6. 3:34

   ultimately it is my job to do everything in my power. To show the maturity in my conscience to be able to lay down a certain aspect of my freedoms for that person. And initially, what I had thought was that by doing this meant fully giving this up. And so I know that you spent time praying and fasting about should you give up the screaming or not? And you ultimately came to a conviction that you should lay down your freedom because you were making the church more important than the music.

7. 4:16

   Which is honestly not something I think a lot of artists would do. A lot of artists find their identity in the music. what a crazy hard decision you had to make. And I'm very proud of you for making such a mature decision. what was driving ultimately your decision to choose the church over the screaming, over the music. The church, the local church is at the end of the day, more important. The local church takes priority over any aspect of worldwide outreach that I could ever have unless that outreach was outpoured through the local church.

8. 5:00

   And that's the aspect that I failed to realize. what I do, I want it to be an outpouring of what the local church is pouring in. but the way I first looked at it was regardless of anything, the local church takes the priority. in my scenario, I would have rather never made another song again than be looked at differently by the people in this church. to not have the ability to pastor them in their life. trust me, it was hard. I cannot even explain to you losing an aspect of that music.

9. 5:38

   There was a part of me that thought I needed it. when all this started, I didn't. But as things grow, you start to worry more about it because you want to be a good steward, you want to do the right things, and maybe I worried about it too much. And God showed me that. And so He refocused me. Put your trust in me, I will sustain this. It doesn't have to be a certain way. I then also realized that the type of music I make, the culture of it includes screaming. And that's just how it is. The main thing that I thought in my mind is if metal was nothing but screaming, then I would have to stop the entire genre.

10. 6:16

    And what if this ministry was built on metal music that was only screaming. Then what? I realized it was a lot deeper than I had initially taken this. And so to think about that one person was important. But then I do realize as I'm trying to be a good steward that there's over hundreds of thousands of people on this other side. This is not a hobby. This is a ministry. So it has to be thought about more. It has to be prayed about more and it has to be talked through. in this time that I had given up the screaming but was still trying to record music. I continued to try and get as close to the aspect of that music as I could And so my alternative to screaming was yelling.

11. 7:00

    Now the meeting was called because my heads had seen the video of me yelling in an unreleased song of mine. They asked the question, is this something that You are releasing that we talked about that was already made. And I said, no, this is new. but I'm not metal screaming by the definition of that, the fry screaming. I'm not doing that. I'm just yelling. And the picture was painted for me pretty clearly that I wasn't thinking about initially, that the same person that sees the screaming a certain way will see that yelling that way as well.

12. 7:38

    They'll they'll just match the two, and there's really no difference. So nothing's really changing. But this conversation allowed us to be able to work through this, think through this, and get to a resolve on how to move forward in it. And this one was not held over the phone, this one was in person, and all of the uncertainties that I had had were answered in this meeting. I want to ask, so where do you draw the line? Let's say it wasn't about this screaming. Maybe it's about tattoos. Like I can't be under somebody in the pulpit with tattoos. Well see, that's just it.

13. 8:16

    What do you do in a situation like that? I have tattoos. However, when I'm in this place, I cover. I cover of course I cannot cover my hands, unless I were to wear black plastic gloves, which I'm not gonna lie to you, I've thought about wearing latex gloves on the stage. the biggest thing in this that I wanted people to learn was to not choose your freedoms over the love that you should have for another person, for the believer with the weaker conscience. this is a little bit different than hey, somebody just thinks that this is wrong, and because this is something you can freely do, you should stop. because though this has been a freedom, this isn't just a hobby.

14. 9:01

    This is a ministry. And so then you have to raise the question, what if somebody has problems with other people's ministries? to be honest with you in all the contexts, I don't know what the line is. But what I do know is that the ministry in which I do online, I want to be sourced by the local church, by the impact the local church has in my life. Everything poured in here is getting poured out there, which is online. So then the other question is raised. If we are tending to the weaker conscience and we are not to place the stumbling block in front of somebody, how are we even able to do that in a media ministry that algorithms and pages will automatically put your stuff in front of those people?

15. 9:49

    And this was the thing that really gave me a headache. from a biblical perspective, you really only had two choices. if the church leadership says, hey, if you're gonna stay here and be on staff, you can't keep screaming for the sake of whoever. So your choice was, I either stop screaming and I stay. Or I go. I leave the church. And I think a lot of people would go, Well, there's like two thousand churches in my city. I can go find another one and keep screaming.

16. 10:25

    A lot of people would do that. What what kept you at your church? Well, before I go into that, I want to clarify that initially thinking about all this and all this happening, I thought that that was the scenario that I was put in. But it was not. it was not a one or another thing. Now this is something that I did not understand until this final meeting. I have a great pastor, a great overseer. And he told me that's not even on my mind. This is the last thing.

17. 11:00

    it clarified that these people had only seen the videos through someone's story in which they followed who was also in the local church. and that was my wife. And The aspect that they were asking me to give up was not necessarily the screaming in the music. It was more so where I put the screaming at online. not placing the stumbling block, was to now take into consideration. the ways that these people had seen this and now not allowing that to be an avenue in which they could see it.

18. 11:40

    So my wife would always repost my videos. She would always post the videos to her story. Anytime a new song came out, she'd do the same thing. we had the talk and she will no longer be doing that. And so this thing that I do will no longer be flaunted in in front of their face. and that for my mind felt kind of bad. And so the question that I asked was this if that person comes up to me and because they don't see the screaming anymore, and they ask me, Caleb, are you still screaming? I'm not gonna lie. I'm gonna tell them yes.

19. 12:19

    How is that gonna make them feel? And the aspect that I had not taken into consideration that my pastor had told me was that. Your love and laying down of a freedom was that aspect of what you do for your wife to freely share your things, knowing that those people follow her and can view that, that is also an aspect that was laid down to no longer tag or even collaborate my music page. with the church's page It's important that it's not just the fact that they're seeing it, it's what seeing it for them does.

20. 12:57

    The ways that they could start to think about me that are ungodly, the ways that they could start to think about other people that do that same thing, And so blocking that and shielding them from that is showing love. Because It does affect certain aspects of the online ministry with views, shares, all that type of stuff. But if I have to give up that aspect to keep being an instrument that the metal listeners will listen because of the screaming, then I'll take it.

21. 13:32

    So you had a face to face meeting with your church leadership and they clarified what their expectations were and came up with a a good compromise, which is hey, we're gonna make sure that the videos that you're filming Are not being distributed in a way where these people are going to be triggered or bothered by them. And that's a way to show them love by creating that separation so that they're not seeing it. And your pastor said, Go scream, go and scream, my son. So the expectations were not necessarily laid by them.

22. 14:15

    The expectations were more so laid by what God was calling on my life. This is what they told me. In my my head pastor's words, what God has called you to is what is expected. If God has called you in this moment to the direction of this head pastoral ministry, then you have to take these things into consideration because many more are going to come up. Not even necessarily stop the screaming, more so understand that there are ways that these people who feel a certain way about it have seen it, and either I can do something about it or walk in what the other calling could have been.

23. 15:02

    Which is to go fully into the music and just be a part of the local church. Because one of them showed local church leadership, and the other just showed local church participation. And what I believe God has called me to, is that I am called to pastor. In fact, I do that, I try to do that through my music. I chose the pastoral ministry aspect in which did not call me to have to stop screaming. that being said, I know one day I'm not gonna have time to make music and be a head pastor.

24. 15:45

    What I did not take into consideration is that God may have not been done. With the music and the screaming aspect of it. So after this conversation had been had. I felt the biggest weight lifted off my shoulders. And I realized that I know this is seasonal. The music in in general is seasonal. But God is still going and my time to stop this Christian metal is not here. I mean, I was burdened over it. I was burdened. know you were.

25. 16:19

    it feels like it was a test. And he was saying, What are you gonna choose? Are you gonna choose me or are you gonna choose the music? And I think you passed that test. I'll clarify this too. the videos that were initially made online, There were people that were with me and yes, you're following a conviction, you're doing a great thing, you're showing maturity, and then there's this other side that didn't quite understand. What I realize is that there is a disconnect between two things, the local church and the Christian metal scene. Now, I've always said this, I'm too Christian for metal, and I'm too metal for Christians.

26. 17:01

    And so you're put in this weird bunch in the middle where both sides have a problem with what you do. that split, I think people on the side that thought I was following a conviction misunderstood. This conviction is not mine. I am simply trying to be obedient to God's word about Tending to the weaker conscience while still doing what God has allowed me to do and managing the the ministry in which He's given me and trying to be a good steward of that.

27. 17:38

    If this was a conviction of mine, I would tell you that I think the screaming's wrong. And that's not the case. I do not think the screaming's wrong. I was just trying to be obedient to the other person's conviction. And on the other side, where the people see this and don't understand It addresses the problem that I have seen in the Christian metal scene that I have been a part of. I've been a part of it. I have partaken in these failures with this scene. We tend to get so consumed with the culture that this scene brings and the the freedoms in which we have in what we do, that the thought of having to lay any of that down for any reason is foreign and that is a problem.

28. 18:29

    Because if anything is contended to be laid down, then maybe we have too much hope in the thing. rather than the one who granted it. are you talking about like the way that you express yourself creatively, musically? Like what are some of the things that you're talking about? So the mechanisms in my case that I was putting too much into was the image, which had to do with my sleep token shirts, I will no longer wear anything that doesn't have to do with God in these videos ever again. but it was the the image in which this this type of music is expected to be portrayed. The dark, the the very kind of edgy, but we're Christians, so we're gonna keep it a little lighter.

29. 19:24

    but then also. The styles in which I do my music, like the screaming. because my thought at the the whole start of this was can I really give up screaming and and like still do this? I shouldn't have to do that. Why should I have to do this when God has blessed it? And that is a selfish way of thinking. it is the total opposite of what a Christian is called to. Christianity is sacrifice. That is love. Love is sacrifice in its truest form. Jesus didn't say, Well, why should I have to leave my throne in heaven to come down to the earth to save these people?

30. 20:05

    Right, right. Right. Why should I have to do that? But he he did it willingly, 'cause he loves us. You know it's interesting because we're coming up on one year of Amen. on October the eighth will be one year And what God had called me to through his word was in Revelation 2. He's listing out all of these things that are good about this church. Then he says, Yet I have this against you that you've left your first love. Then the call to action is return to the first works. Return to the things in which you did when you first received salvation, And I realized that there's things that I stopped doing and God needed to call me back to those things.

31. 20:48

    it has called me back to what I am doing in the core of it. I had a choice. Let all of this drive me into a cave and hide my face and be ready to throw it down and say I'm done, and then let God give it to somebody else, even though he had given me the promise. And who I'm talking about is Elijah, or I could continue on with this, seek him in this season that is uncomfortable, learn from it, move forward, and continue to be used as the instrument in this. And God doesn't have to get somebody else to do it.

32. 21:25

    And I don't think I could have lived with the first one. I would have been unsatisfied. I would have been hurt. I probably would have felt a lot like Jonah under that tree. I would be very, very broken. And I felt that before. where I had backslidden and left the church. And that was that was back in 2023. I had completely left this church out of shame, out of guilt. And so I know how it feels, and I I cannot feel that again. I know Caleb when I've been praying for you, I have felt lament. so I knew that you were going through a battle on the inside and that there was struggle and sadness and challenge and testing I think I said to you in our first podcast at the end, I remember just saying you were so clear in that you love the music

33. 22:22

    and that you know that one day God's gonna call you to put it down and that when he, the Lord, tells you that that's supposed to happen, that you're a hundred percent willing to do that. And I remember saying, I'm proud of you for that. That's a big deal for not just a young person, but any person to say, there's this thing that I do that the Lord's called me to and I love it. But if the Lord says I'm done, then I'm done. that was a moment for me in our podcast that I won't forget because I remember feeling, wow, I know so many other seasoned Christians, older people, that I don't think could say that.

34. 23:01

    You're going to get criticism your whole life, no matter what you do. If you had put the music down and a hundred percent went with the church and never touched again, you're gonna get criticism. If you keep screaming, you're gonna get criticism. If take the screaming out and just sing, you're gonna get criticism. So my prayer for you, Caleb, and moving forward always is just gonna be that the loudest voice you ever hear is the father's, Mm-hmm. and that that's the voice. you pay attention to and that you make no decisions without knowing that it was the father's voice, not not your own, not your fans, not your respectfully, not your pastor, not your congregants.

35. 23:42

    The father's voice will tell you. He'll lead, guide, and direct you. In all of your ways. That's how I pray for you. And if he tells you to put something down, you'll have peace about it. And if you're struggling with it, he will heal that part of you that might be missing in that laying of down. But he's gonna honor you. So that's where I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, of course. I'll say one last thing. this whole scenario has shown me what I think God has called me to. having still this ministry in metal and screaming in it while also seeking head pastoral leadership means that My calling is now formed by the two together.

36. 24:27

    And now I realize a specific yearning that I have in my heart that I've had and shown throughout this whole process. The divide between the local church and the Christian metal scene. And I want to. Bridge the two together. this bridge is to understand the faults of the local church. There are many, and the many faults that are in the Christian metal community, and To find ways that both places can think as one. Because we are called universally to be the church.

37. 25:12

    And that's what I yearn for is for us to act like it. There's a lot of stuff in my first video, if anybody saw it, that I talked about. I said some things and used some examples. And for that, I do apologize. The context of those examples I used with a a dove and a raven and the material in which that saying or that merchandise pertained to I'm sorry to those people. it was an irresponsible thing on my end to do. There's people that I know about, but there could be many more that I didn't know about that felt attacked in that.

38. 25:48

    And I want you to know that that goes contrary to what I want to do. And so for that, I am very sorry. And I hope that this podcast could clear up this whole situation that in aspects was mishandled by me. I want to be as transparent through all of these things. I want us to be able to work through these things together and give you an insight in this to tear down the veil that social media has I hope that you can see my heart in it now and I want this situation and everything that comes from this to begin to build that bridge between the local church and the Christian metal scene, to not criticize each other, to not try to victimize ourselves.

39. 26:33

    To not try to be separate as if we are the edgy group and that we have to look a certain way because of the type of music that we make, or even idolize the music itself or the culture of it over a Christian culture in which the local church sees that and then thinks that we aren't of them. I don't think I'm the forerunner of this. I think that all of us coming together can build this bridge. It doesn't have to be one person. It can collectively be this entire community. And it's gonna be hard, it's gonna be burdensome, and it's not always gonna work.

40. 27:07

    But We can do it. I believe it. Amen. Amen. Wanna pray so Caleb? Yeah.